Spring 2005 Edition

Controversial Book   There was a lot of talk in town, after a parent objected to a book her ninth grade son was required to read.  The novel, Lords of Discipline, is about four cadets at a military school in South Carolina.   The following pages are excerpts from Fair Lawn's Discussion Forum.  Some people, like Stuart Pace, use their real name on the Discussion Forum.  Others, like to remain anonymous.  There's a couple of references to Bruce Watson; he's the Board of Education Superintendent.    -----------------------------------------------------   Stuart Pace - What's the hubbub about a parent contesting a book being read in the 9th grade?   Indigene - It's not a textbook it is a classic paperback, and I do not want to give too much detail as I prefer to remain anonymous...   Reply to Last Post I don't see a problem with a novel. A textbook on the other hand would be another story. We live in a different age now.   I also feel it is ridiculous that one parent figures that because she thinks a book is inappropriate that the school is going to cave in and ban the book. There is an alternative that was given. In my opinion end of story.   Everyone has their own agendas. It is impossible to deal with all of them unless we want our children to grow up in a bubble which is not the reality of life today.   Matt Ahearn Now I'm curious - what book was causing the ruckus re banning? Not the old "The Catcher in the Rye" thing again was it?   Raggedy Ann I agree with the parent that wants the book banned. I think that there are other "classics" that are more appropriate for a 14-15 year old to be reading.   Reply to Last Post There are many books in the curriculum that one person or the other might want to get rid of for a variety of reasons with some validity.   I agree with the Superintendent that there is a mechanism in place which is to allow for an alternative book. Folks, let our educators do there job and educate the children.   Matt Ahearn Given an alternative book; no harm, no foul but censorship...   Not to mention that it is a book about people our national leaders send to deliver the ultimate obscenity with great efficiency to our enemies, real or perceived. I have no problem with my three girls dealing with it at that age. Truth is truth. It is about a real place and time in the real world about people who live to one day experience some of the ultimate reality of the brutality of man to his fellow man. Who gives a crap about graphic details in a book. Vile language in print, oh my ...   Raggedy Ann You know what, I am sorry, I don't agree.   They are sending mixed messages. If any of those high school students were to repeat the language or the behavior or call anyone any of those names they would get an In-School Suspension for obscene language or behavior on their FIRST OFFENSE. Zero tolerance for obscene behavior or language but ok to read as an approved book in our school curriculum.   Leave it for the Seniors to read. Not the Freshman.   Another Concerned Parent - I agree with you - "Leave it for the Seniors to read. Not the Freshman."   Alex P. Adler “A work of enormous power, passion, humor, and wisdom. It sweeps the reader along on a great tide of honest, throbbing emotion. It is the work of a writer with a large, brave heart." -- Jonathan Yardley, Washington Star   This is a quote that described Conroy’s book “ Lords of Discipline”. I certainly can understand if some parents don’t want their children to be subjected to the vulgarity of reality until a more “appropriate” age, but the book isn’t teaching vileness or sadism. It is a frank tale of what happens behind the curtain of one of our “fine” military training establishments.   It is interesting to note that throughout history many books have caused shock and horror to “polite’ society because of the story line or words used to describe it.   Here is a short list of some of those books: 1) “Lady Chatterley’s Lover” by DH Lawrence 2) “Madame Bovary” by Gustave Flaubert 3) “Jude the Obscure” by Thomas Hardy 4) “The Well of Loneliness” by Radclyffe Hall   All of these works are literary gems; for they are very well written with provocative themes meant to engender deep though and discussion.    Raggedy Ann I asked my son about the book. He said, "Yes, I know about the book. This kid who is reading it showed us and we all read it and it was describing ". He said that the book said, "I circled my tongue around her nipple"......."we were rocking in sequence".   Deep thought, I am sure!!!!!!!!!!! I would like to know what discussion was used when it came to this part of the book?!   I now feel sick. If my son was passing a book around that was describing a sex act and not an "approved" book he would have gotten in trouble. I want to know who approved this book for our freshman children to read!!!!!!! Did they actually read it?   Alex P. Adler Raggedy Ann, Here is an example of the type of deep discussion that can be aroused from “The Lords of Discipline“. (From the Amazon website:  "Conroy is a master wordsmith, and I find myself reading his sentences over and over again. It's comparable to taking a bite of a decadent dessert, and rolling it around on your tongue to savor every forkful. His descriptions are priceless, his characters well fleshed out, and the plot will have you marathon reading to finish this 498-page book. I especially loved his observations about Charleston and the low country. Conroy also deals with timeless and universal issues. They include the struggles of a young boy growing into manhood and how difficult it is to stand up for your beliefs. Also, how those that love you can cause the worst hurt, and how those you think are loyal friends can betray you in a heartbeat. Conroy dwells on how it is possible to love and hate something at the same time (in this case, the Institute), and how the righteous don't always prevail. And while things might turn out in the end, they might not turn out the way you envision them."   So you see, it can be appreciated and provide a heuristic for intellectual curiosity. Having said that, I can truly empathize with you on this issue: I am not sure I would be comfortable talking to my 14 year old about the specifics of this book; but the general themes? Well these are things that will definitely be discussed. So this book can be a useful tool for exposing the raw truth that sometimes life isn’t a fairy tale and more importantly, that reality needs to be appreciated so one can better understand the empirical actually of life.   In the end, I think this debate on “Lords of Discipline” has more to do with its approach then it does with themes that drive the plot. But it is human nature to use words to create an effect to provoke thought so the reader or listener can appreciate the concept being presented. I admit that Conrad’s approach is abrasive and raw, but maybe that was why it was selected to be read in the first place; to peek the interest of the developing adolescent mind. Moreover, it represents the same passion that has aroused you to voice your opinion and concern, and that is where I praise you and hope you will continue to do so.   Raggedy Ann Yes, but the only thing they are seeing at age 14 & 15 are the sex parts that they are passing around, giggling and showing their friends. They are too immature to handle the true concept and the purpose of the book. I feel it should be assigned to the older student.   Matt Ahearn - How would a 14 or 15 year old male get from being too immature at that age to mature enough at 16 or 17? What would occur to change the maturity level and make Conroy's language of locker room talk more appropriate in that year or two? Looking at a Victoria Secrets catalogue or soft-porn magazine some buddy snagged that is being passed around without the literary value as a backdrop or something? They're gonna learn the language "first" from some place, either their peers or within a structures classroom setting. By the way, the Salvadoran troops our forces trained in the 1980's were 15 and 16 year old boys, they were mature enough for war. If our young men in FLHS are as immature as you imply perhaps they have been over protected from reality and it is a good thing to hit them with such literary works to begin the maturation process ASAP.   Raggedy Ann You people just don't get it. I stated that Seniors 17-18 should be reading it. Yes, a lot matures in a child from 14 to 18. That's why they can't drive or join the military in America because they are not ready. Give me a break. I can't even believe you asked that question.   Describing a sex act such as the one passage I described in an earlier post is inappropriate as part of their school assigned curriculum at that age. There have been some children I am told that are being suspended for saying the word "balls" and then they hand out books describing sex acts such as "tracing nipples with their tongue" and every movement up to and then describing sex in a very graphic detailed way. That to me is "soft porn" assigned by our educators.   Something is wrong here people, its just that you aren't seeing it because you are blind by military issues that do not affect the American children at this young age like the children in other countries that are being groomed for their military obligation since birth.   I am not talking about anything else in that book except describing a sexual act in great detail as it is described in that book to a child of that age is inappropriate and should not be a part of a child's required reading assignments by a school district. Anyone repeating the words in the book would be punished severely by the school district, yet it is ok to read it as part of the assignment. Double standard and not sending right message to the kids. Most not all, but most are just giggling and passing the book around sharing the "dirty" parts with all their friends.   Bottom line and that is just my humble opinion. I don't expect to change anyone else’s opinion, I was just simply stating mine on the subject but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and their own set of values and morals.   Stuart Pace Come on Raggedy, how many 14 year olds don't know the language. I have not read the book, but I do see what my 14 and 13 yr old watch on the WB. It's not far from what you describe in the book. I don't think it's for everyone, but I am not offended by it. I would rather they read about what is right from wrong, than hide it from them. Maybe a frank discussion at home is needed. The educators have a system in place that will allow anyone to read an alternative choice.   C. Antonelli My take.  Because an adult told the students to read the book, the student may feel that the teachers and adults condone the depicted in the book. This may in turn make the student think that at age 14 it's OK to be sexually active. Do you really want a 14 year old to experiment with sex at 14?  You're sending conflicting messages. If parents need to be on the same page in disciplining the kids, the teachers and parents need to be there as well.   I think the book is inappropriate. Dr. Watson needs to see this. It's OK to admit a mistake every once in a while. To defend this is ludicrous.   Reply to Last Post Oh boy, look at the whole context of the book. The book is appropriate reading when you look at the whole book and it is discussed appropriately. It is my understanding that it is for an advanced course which also makes the academic understanding of the book and the ensuing discussion at an advanced level.  If your child is not mature enough to handle it, take the alternate assignment.   Sophia Cohn OK children -- let's all grow up. I too have teenagers. Just like we don't want our children to use foul language, they don't have to learn it in school. We know there is sex -- but we don't have to learn all the details in school.   I was not happy with "Of Mice and Men" a couple of years ago with all the foul language, but ok it's a classic. But to read a passage in a book that describes "a tongue encircling her nipple" and "we were rocking in sequence" tells me that the English Supervisor needs to know what is appropriate for certain age groups, certainly not freshmen.   I think FLHS is sending the wrong messages to our kids. How would you feel if you saw your own 14 year old freshman in the hall sucking face? or better yet, a boy encircling the nipple of your daughter because of copy cat affect from the book Open your eyes people!   Raggedy Ann My "so called immature son" was shown the sexual parts of the book by several of those supposedly "mature, advanced" students (both boys and girls by the way) who were the ones running around giggling and showing everyone else about the "dirty" book that they were reading. So you tell me how much more mature those "advanced" students really are. They are typical teenagers. That's all. It's up to the adults to be the responsible ones.   Dan Whalen I have to put my two cents in on this issue. Well, I don't have to, but I'm going to anyway.   This is not a an issue of book banning or "imposing one's own belief", in my view. It's an issue of common sense and responsible reflection of leaders once something is brought to their attention.   Yes, the book is on "a list" chosen by the teacher?, teachers?, or committee?   The issue is age appropriateness and whether once a valid issue is brought to the attention of the BOE what the response of the a school leaders are. Raggedy Ann is the only one who has brought specifics regarding the reactions of the children in that particular class. And it's not a good one. If true, it rebuts the contention that it's age appropriate.  Why is a book that has specific graphic detail on a reading list for 14 year olds? Romeo and Juliet it's not. Please.   Are there no other books with similar subjects that could be part of the reading list? Why is this book, when it's known to have language and graphic detail considered appropriate? This is the issue. Not whether or not there is another book that that specific child can read instead.   Mr. Watson indicates that it's not "democratic" that one parent should impose themselves on the majority. Now, that's a fallacious argument. That assumes that each of the parents of the other kid's are involved, know what's in the book, and approve. Now, it's logical to assume that some do, some don't, and other's are somewhere in the middle perhaps. But none have had the courage of their convictions to step forward as this one set of parents have. For this I commend them. It's not easy to stick your name and reputation out there for such an issue. I've read much on this site from others about how all it takes is one person to change something and how noble it is.   Comparing what's in this book to what one can see or hear on MTV or some other show- or billboard is likewise fallacious. That smut is in the commercial square. As we've been told ad nauseum- change the channel. The school is mandatory and the BOE and Supt. are uniquely entrusted with the care and custody of all of the children. It's an apples and oranges argument.    Joe Tedeschi Dan, You are right on the money and what you said makes for good common sense. There is a process in place and corrections will be made.   Heather Blecher I am usually a pretty liberal person, and I even shop at bebe Matt <g>, but I have to say after seeing the two passages Raggedy Ann posted, I have to side with her. Reading is a whole different world from tv or seeing poster ads. It takes you beyond with your imagination. Not that these kids aren't thinking that way at 14, but in my opinion, for the school to promulgate such explicitness at that tender age is wrong. Yes there is a big difference between age 14 and 16,17. That said, I also strongly believe that parents should be open about sex, drugs, and alcohol with their kids so they know right from wrong and feel confident in themselves. However, I do not feel you need to be so detailed at the age of 14.   Bill Willis I can't help but wonder if there would be a similar reaction to a reading list book that included a comparably graphic description of someone being killed.   Lloyd P. Dorfman I wonder if the parents who all object to the reading selection are monitoring or using cyber lock on their computers....   Matt Ahearn “[I]t’s not just the books under fire now that worry me. It is the books that will never be written. The books that will never be read. And all due to the fear of censorship. As always, young readers will be the real losers.” — Judy Blume    FLSS I wonder if the parents who all object to the reading selection are monitoring or using cyber lock on their computers. Well said and they probably aren't. I was reading the comments that have been passed on this so called (dirty) book everyone is up in arms over. Our daughter is age 14 and was told everything about her sexuality at 13. I wanted her to learn it home and not come to her own conclusions as seen on tv or through her peers. I think you are all getting a litte melodramatic over this book. Maybe you should sit down with your young adults and educate them so that these topics are not something that they think are (Dirty).   Bill Willis Next thing you know, we'll have an epidemic of boys running away from home to float down the Passaic River on homemade rafts while smoking corncob pipes and harboring fugitives...   Raymond St. Resident All this keeps reminding me of the childhood corrupters of those damn Rock and Roll records and comic books...wasn't my generation supposed to grow up into a bunch of long-haired, dirty, lazy, drug-addled, hip-gyrating freaks?   Jo Sacchinelli As a parent we are responsible for teaching our children about sex. However, within those lessons we are responsible for teaching the beauty of love and the consequences which can come out of a sexual relationship. This is the part I feel we are missing and the most important. I would rather have my child watch the movie "Dirty Dancing" if everyone remembers it does show consequence. There is a reason why teenage pregnancy is at an all time high in our society and many babies are killed or do not receive the care needed because their parents still want to go to the local skating rink and hang out. Or sexually transmitted diseases are rampid. We leave out the most important lesson to teach our children and that is consequence. If the teacher followed up with a lesson in what can happen if that 14 year old chooses to , then I would be all for it. However, I doubt very much this was part of the lesson.   Joe Tedeschi Jo, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. Parents over the last 15 years have become more and more dependent on the school system to help raise their children. The causes of this shift are many and there is not one single culprit. Single parent homes, two working parents, rampant TV, among many other causes. We've have kids growing up by themselves or in groups with their friends of similar circumstances.   How many families are able to sit down together at the evening dinner table to discuss the day and commune as a family? I see parents who are so tired they just want to get through the day and get their kid to the next event, I see kids who don't understand the concept of respecting their parents because they only see them in a blur.   Parents need to recapture their responsibility and subordinate some personal objectives for the sake of their children. Every day I see parents who want to be their kids friend and treat them not as children who need nurturing, guidance and supervision but rather as a friend who they try to placate. Of course this is not all parents but there are enough to notice.   We see public officials who are supposed to be the bulwark of ethical behavior arrested for stealing and graft, we see professional athletes flaunting their responsibility to youth for the sake of some performance enhancing drug. These are what our kids grow up seeing and referencing as proper behavior.   We must realize that the core of society is the family and there are no viable alternatives. Every day I see teachers and parents working together to help educate our kids. But they are still our kids and while we may delegate authority we cannot delegate responsibility.   Parents, teachers, administrators and board members must work in concert if our kids are to succeed and become the next great generation. Education should mirror the desires of all of these groups. When there are issues, such as the one we face currently, the solution, we must all realize, will be found when all of the concerns are considered and included in the solution.   Stuart Pace Is it the school's responsibility to teach our children about sex?? I hope not. I think I posed the question "Does anyone know what the hubbub is about a book in school". I am so sorry I asked!!!!